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 Post subject: Persistent bad taste
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:56 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:33 am
Posts: 316
Hello everyone.
Very conscious I've probably not posted anything on here for around 3 years... but I have been brewing!! I need your guys help.

I am suffering somewhat of a crisis in my brewery. Ever since I brewed a saison last summer every beer I brew develops a kind of harsh yeasty off taste... think bad saison. I have changed my fermenter and syphoning kit and cleaned all my cornies with VWP and starsan.... I even dismantled them to do a deep clean. I have also bought new beer line from the cornies to the taps and new gas line.

I'm pretty sure that the infection is happening in the cornies. Although it's weird because it seems to have affected all the cornies even though the saison was only in one of them.
My conclusion is that I need to step up my sanitising to use something a bit stronger than starsan. Has anyone got any suggestions?


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 Post subject: Re: Persistent bad taste
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:24 pm
Posts: 255
ive got no problem with star san i stopped using VWP along time ago i went over to WIZZ OXI POWDER from the pound shops 1 scoup to 2 liters hot water it is a lot cheaper than vwp if thats any help


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 Post subject: Re: Persistent bad taste
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:16 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:06 pm
Posts: 2277
Location: Bristol
Cornies need a non-return valve in the gas-line particularly if you are splitting the gas line after the primary regulator to serve more than one keg. Sankey kegs are more sophisticated in that respect as the connectors have non return valves built in. Infection/saison/other wanky yeasts spread easily without NRV's in place. (A NRV in the gas line and the beer line as close to the keg as you can fit them is best practice anyway)

See http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/John-Guest-Si ... budM_opaDg

Cornelius kegs need cleaning brutally and all the o-rings replacing on a regular basis. The dip tube o rings in particular want replacing after each use. A full dismantle of the keg after each use is essential and not optional. The Silicone ones that we organised as a club bulk purchase do seem to last longer though. I reccomend http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PROFESSIONAL- ... SwFV9XxpzZ or similar as a cleaner - but follow the instructions. Other brutal cleaners are available, but at least that one is fairly safe to use :)

Starsan isn't bad, but it will not kill yeasts - it's acid based and we acid wash yeasts to clean them up....

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This year I think that I will finally develop an invisible cardigan and my project to extract gold from spiders legs will also reap great rewards.


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 Post subject: Re: Persistent bad taste
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:24 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:33 am
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Cheers guys, plenty for me to follow up with there!


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 Post subject: Re: Persistent bad taste
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:40 am 

Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:29 pm
Posts: 466
Location: Bristol
RogerP wrote:
Cornies need a non-return valve in the gas-line particularly if you are splitting the gas line after the primary regulator to serve more than one keg. Sankey kegs are more sophisticated in that respect as the connectors have non return valves built in. Infection/saison/other wanky yeasts spread easily without NRV's in place. (A NRV in the gas line and the beer line as close to the keg as you can fit them is best practice anyway)

See http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/John-Guest-Si ... budM_opaDg

Cornelius kegs need cleaning brutally and all the o-rings replacing on a regular basis. The dip tube o rings in particular want replacing after each use. A full dismantle of the keg after each use is essential and not optional. The Silicone ones that we organised as a club bulk purchase do seem to last longer though. I reccomend http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PROFESSIONAL- ... SwFV9XxpzZ or similar as a cleaner - but follow the instructions. Other brutal cleaners are available, but at least that one is fairly safe to use :)

Starsan isn't bad, but it will not kill yeasts - it's acid based and we acid wash yeasts to clean them up....


I agree with Roger, strip everything back and give it a blitz.

I use 5% Peracetic acid, diluted 5ml per litre. kills everything stone dead and is completely no rinse. it's a little nasty neat but is fine once diluted. Unlike starsan it doesn't keep well once diluted and you have to keep the undiluted stuff in the fridge.

These are good non-return valves for the gas line, really useful and stops anything getting up in your reg.

https://www.hopandgrape.co.uk/beer/beer ... elius.html

Also dismantle and clean all of your ball valves, even the ones hot side.

Do you brew in a basement?? I remember sandy having some issues when he was brewing downstairs.

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 Post subject: Re: Persistent bad taste
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:56 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:33 am
Posts: 180
Location: downstairs
I'm getting away with just using Starsan but I'd revert to bleach solution or videne solution if I had problems. Bleach solution may react with stainless over night but the standard 20 to 30 minutes should be OK.

Before buying new stuff on a speculative basis, I'd try taking off a few litres from a brew (a) into a demijohn dipped into the boiler, and (b) another demijohn filled from the tap. When fermented, bottle the demijohns. Also fill a couple of bottles from the main fermenter (c) first dip a bottle into the bucket, then (d) fill a bottle from your usual siphon.

If those four routes all give good bottled beer you have isolated your kegs as the likely source. Other combinations help you narrow down your infection.

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 Post subject: Re: Persistent bad taste
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:06 pm
Posts: 2277
Location: Bristol
PMowdes wrote:


They look good, is it a plastic body? How strong is it? The JG ones have the benefit of having a short length of pipe after the disco giving some protection, but those look cooler.

_________________
”spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ ʎɐld”

This year I think that I will finally develop an invisible cardigan and my project to extract gold from spiders legs will also reap great rewards.


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 Post subject: Re: Persistent bad taste
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:53 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:33 am
Posts: 316
So....
Peracetic acid... would this be ok?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-LITRE-PERAC ... Sw9N1VqA-O

Or Roger, you recommended the beer line cleaner. Would I apply this to the corny as well?

In both cases I'm guessing I would spray it on....
Cheers guys.

Ps new o-rings and Non return valve ordered...


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 Post subject: Re: Persistent bad taste
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:23 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:49 pm
Posts: 849
MapperMatt wrote:
So....
Peracetic acid... would this be ok?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-LITRE-PERAC ... Sw9N1VqA-O

Or Roger, you recommended the beer line cleaner. Would I apply this to the corny as well?
Ps new o-rings and Non return valve ordered...


Hi Matt
the peracetic is fine. be very careful with BLC in your cornies, do not leave for extended periods of time, it will rust them.
In addition, I would go for silicone hoses, which can be boiled \ pressure cooked.

You could also try "no - chill" which eliminates a lot of infection routes as your boiled (hot) wort goes straight into an HDPE jerry can, and you can then pitch yeast straight into it when cool.

also suggest you just bottle a few straight from the fermenter with a dash of priming sugar to see if they are spoiled too. This might imply that its not coming from the cornies.

my hunch is that it is pre - corny FWIW.

You could always bring a bottle or two to a meeting and we can give our considered opinions..

cheers
steve

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 Post subject: Re: Persistent bad taste
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:00 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:06 pm
Posts: 2277
Location: Bristol
Yup, beer line cleaner is used here to sanitise* everything. It's caustic based and the purple version just has added Pot. Perm.

Peracetic might be more potent, but, as a concentrated product, it's quite a bugger to handle.

The Silicone O-rings are the best :)

I also wonder if it's pre-corny. Have you ever bottled any and compared? It's so easy to introduce Oxygen when kegging and that can accelerate problems. Fill a CO2 purged keg via the beer in dip tube and you lessen the problem. Purging the filled keg a few times with CO2 is also wise.

* I clean using Sodium Percarbonate or PBW

_________________
”spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ ʎɐld”

This year I think that I will finally develop an invisible cardigan and my project to extract gold from spiders legs will also reap great rewards.


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